Krav Maga. The self-defense art where the only rule is that there are no rules. The first lesson we learned. Avoid confrontation whenever possible. If you can’t, then run—run as fast as you can! But if you find yourself cornered, fight. Defend yourself and strike where it hurts your opponent the most. If Hasbara were in a fight, it would just cover its head, take the hits, and plead, “But I’m a nice person! All I want is peace. Here, take my jacket—I’m willing to compromise!”
Unfortunately, Hasbara doesn’t effectively make the case for Israel. It rarely fights back or disrupts the other side’s balance, allowing them to keep attacking without fear.
Here’s a fascinating discussion featuring an articulate bright advocate for Israel who did a wonderful job defending Israel and our own Paul, who’s playing the devil’s advocate. This exchange shines a light on the tactics used by pro-Palestinian advocates, who seem to have a knack for keeping us on the defensive with a barrage of accusations and the need for our side to punch back.
This time around, it is not an ignorant hate filled Israel hater championing Hamas cause and narrative. The devil’s advocate played the part of a moral minded man who is engaged in ‘fair and unbiased critic” of Israel’s policies and is just concerned about the policies of Israel in Gaza and seeking for the conflict to end so that the civilian population will stop dying. He is described here as “Anti Israel” because hidden behind the façade of morality he portrays is a sinister agenda against Israel.
(The below debate actually happened with the pro Israeladvocate never knowing that the anti Israel guy is playing the devil’s advocate)
Pro Israel: Do you condemn Hamas?
Anti Israel: Yes.
Anti Israel: Do you condemn Israel war crimes?
Pro Israel advocate: Israel is not committing war crimes. If it was, I would condemn them.
Anti Israel: So you do not condemn Israel for killing babies, grandmothers, innocents, women, eradicating whole neighborhoods. And you support human rights and abhor violence against innocents?
Pro Israel advocate: They are tragedies but they are not war crimes. In war, people die. That is a hideous fact but when the army of a sovereign country is defending itself from a terrorist regime that has initiated that war, the deaths of civilians who have not been targeted is the inevitable and tragic consequence. However, that is not a war crime. On the other hand, placing your civilians on top of your ammunition stores and rocket launchers, or between your terrorist fighters and the army who is fighting a defensive war… now THAT is a war crime. That is Hamas. Hamas are responsible for every death in this war. Every. Single. Death. You won’t shut up the anti Israel guy. It’s the people who are listening to the conversation that may get insight.
Anti Israel: Thank you, however, watch this video of a Gazanwoman with her child who was gunned down by an Israeli sniper (And he shows a video of a woman who appears to have been gunned down while holding a white flag) and says this was done by Israel and that he has more videos like that. And then asks what you have to say to the deliberate gunning down of an un-armed woman.
Pro Israel Advocate: This is my answer… If it’s true and not just another fake propaganda video, then I would condemn it and so would Israel. Soldiers who knowingly gun down civilians are answerable to the Israeli courts and Israeli law. Shit happens in war but Israel does not excuse the behavior of bad actors who break the law. On the other hand, where are the Hamas courts sitting in judgment of their own people? Hamas targeted civilian women and children for death, rape and mutilation as well as taking them as hostages. They filmed it while they did it and posted it on social media, often using the cameras of the phones of the people they slaughtered and sending it to the relatives of those people, sometimes in real time.
Hamas glories in its war crimes. Unlike Israel who takes action at the state level to prosecute individuals for war crimes, such behavior is a shameless strategy of hamas. Not only does hamasnot condemn or take action against fighters who commit war crimes, they revel in it and celebrate it and so does Gazansociety if we believe their films that had them spitting on and beating hostages both alive and dead, when they were taken back into the streets of Gaza.
During every war started by hamas (and all of them have been started by hamas) elaborate videos have come out purporting to show the IDF committing war crimes. At the end of the wars, with UN support and screaming that atrocities have been committed by Israel, independent enquiries have been launched and none of the accusations have stood up to scrutiny. I’ll wait for the results of the next investigation, thanks.
Meanwhile, a question for you, what’s the difference between state sanctioned war crimes that are the war strategy of a state actor and an army acting in defense of a country whose members are answerable to and will be punished by, their own state if their combatants commit war crimes?
Anti Israel: Thank you, I have already condemned Hamas. Hamas is a terrible organization. They are evil personified for what they did on October 7 and thereafter.
But many human rights organizations including even some Israeli soldiers as reported by Haaretz and other organizations have testified that they are told by their commanders to shoot both civilians and Hamas combatants. I like the fact that you said you will be condemning the war crime if it is proven and maybe have the perpetrators sent to ICC.
What authority should it’s conclusion on whether Israel committed war crime or not be accepted by you? Since it appeared that some of them including UN and many other private organizations may have made wrong accusations about war crimes prior to proper investigation and you may not trust their conclusion again.Is it only that of Israel? Would it be right to have Israel be both the judge and accused?
And to answer your question, the state sanctioned war crimes is horrible and that’s why I despise Hamas. The thing is that based on testimonies from some soldiers, statements from it’s leaders and videos and facts on ground, it appears to be that Israel sanctions the war crimes.
Pro Israeli advocate: These are accusations only. The UN has initiated investigations in past wars and they have had to accept the accusations (of Israel complicity in war crimes) have been shown to be false based on their own findings. These accusations raise their head in every conflict in which Israel has been involved and in every case, the accusations have been shown to be false. That there may be individual soldiers that break the law, this happens in every war with every country but there are many instances of Israel holding its own soldiers accountable. For example, soldier Elor Azaria who was tried and convicted for shooting terrorist Abdel Fattah al-Sharif while he was being apprehended during a terrorist incident. I dare you to name even one terrorist who has been tried by either hamas or Fatah (the Palestinian Authority) for killing an Israeli. Indeed, the opposite. Hamas and Fatah pay their people a stipend for life out of their aid money (the Martyrs Fund) in return for every Jew they kill. I would call that a state sanctioned war crime.
It’s fascinating also that the UN is perpetually initiating investigations into alleged Israel war crimes (indeed there are current ongoing investigations now as usual) but they have never initiated any investigation into the blatantly obvious war crimes of Hamas, Fatah or the PA. Israel is constantly scrutinized against the possibility of any misstep but the terrorists are never held to official scrutiny even though it’s blatantly obvious that targeting civilians as per Oct 7 or via public bombings and inciting their people to stab civilians in the street (the stabbing intifada) etc are clearly state sanctioned war crimes.
There are NGOs mostly funded by other NGOs outside of Israel that are dedicated to destroying the State of Israel from inside. For example, B’Tselem, the organization that seeks out disaffected Israeli soldiers in an attempt to discredit the IDF, is largely funded by overseas organizations like the misleadingly named New Israel Fund. This organization encourages Jews to donate in the belief that they are supporting Israel but are really organizations that work to destroy and undermine Israel’s right to exist. Another funder of B’Tselem is the Open Society Foundation which is a George Soros backed fund that claims to distribute funds to build democratic institutions but in reality distributes funds to organizations that disrupt social cohesion in democratic societies.
Once you dig into these types of accusations against Israel, you find a trail of persistent and failed accusations often bolstered and supported by NGOs operating inside Israel but funded from outside. If people can’t be bothered doing the homework to try to track down where these campaigns originate, what gives them away is the unrelenting and persistent nature of these campaigns in spite of their failure to be substantiated even by organizations that are openly hostile to Israel; like the UN (General Assembly) which has lodged 154 resolutions against Israel between 2015 and 2023, while adopting only 71 against all other countries combined in the same period. A little unbalanced don’t you think?
Given the known human rights abuses in countries like China, Russia, Iran, Syria, Sudan, the Congo and etc, you’d have to ask why the obsessive focus on Israel especially when the UN has failed to substantiate its accusations from past conflicts. It’s an extraordinary amount of pressure to put on a country that is perpetually on a defensive war footing and yet, organizations like the UN have failed to substantiate even one misstep.
Now I don’t know the film that alleges that an Israeli sniper shot an unarmed woman, so I can’t answer to that particular film. I do know that there is an extensive Pallywood industry that churns out many propaganda films that purport to show Israeli atrocities and the vast majority have been credibly debunked. They usually involve terrorists dressed as IDF soldiers and cooperative civilian actors. Some of these hoaxes have been quite elaborate and you can research them online. I find it fascinating that if there is such a movie and if it is genuine, it so easily undermines faith in the moral right of Israel to exist or defend itself. How quick people are to abandon Israel in the face of an unproven claim versus the thousands of known atrocities committed by organizations such as hamas or incited by the PA. I would like to hear the Israeli side of this allegation. I would expect Israel to launch their own investigation into this if it had any credibility at all, just as they have into other allegations (like the Al Ahli hospital bombing that proved to be an Islamic Jihad rocket). Given Israel’s track record and how closely it is scrutinized by the world against the possibility of even one misstep by one rogue soldier, I expect the truth would end up being revealed. But again, I find it fascinating that Israel’s enemies have to work so hard to find even one passable accusation and then that gets blown up into THE BIG THING that is supposed to undermine Israel and yet, Hamas and the PA are not held legally accountable for anything. Strange, nu?
There is an old saying that if you throw enough mud at something, eventually, some sticks. This seems to be the philosophy of Israel’s enemies. Fair-minded people are reminded that allegations without proof are just that… unsubstantiated allegations. A movie is not proof. It shows only what the people who filmed it want to show. Perhaps actors, perhaps lacking context, perhaps evidence of a crime that should be investigated but at this stage it is still only an allegation. Fair-minded people should remember that and also reflect on how often this stuff has proved to be maliciously motivated slander in the past and should be regarded with a level of skepticism in light of that history.
Please provide links to the stuff that appears to show Israel sanctioning war crimes. BTW Haaretz is not a credible source. It masquerades as an Israeli newspaper but is in fact an extreme left wing German media arm that is heavily biased against Israel. The sheer dishonesty of how it presents itself as an Israeli paper (especially in the international news scene) should give it away. Furthermore, I believe the Israeli military police are currently investigating the claims made against the IDF by Haaretz. Again, I don’t hear of anyone in Hamas examining the allegations made against their combatants.
To your point “Is it only that of Israel? Would it be right to have Israel be both the judge and accused?” In international law, where a country has a robust legal system and a proven track record of holding its own people accountable, it is legally considered appropriate for that country to try its own people for war crimes. Israel has both, having jailed one of its own Prime Ministers in the past and also its own soldiers at times. This is simply a matter of international law. Israel’s opponents do not have a track record of either a robust legal system or of jailing their own people for breaches of international law, yet… they are given a pass.
Anti Israel: Thanks for your response. It is true that UN and some organizations on many occasions made hasty conclusions which they walk back later. But don’t you think that it is not right to claim that they have been wrong all the time?
Let’s say that Haaretz and some other organizations also like the UN may have ulterior agenda but it won’t be right to say that all of them and all that they ever report against Israel are lies.
You used a typical example of Elor Azaria case. Do you have any idea that the person who shot that Azaria video was a Btselem or one of those other organizations that report against Israel?
If that video was not shot openly when it was happening clearly and posted on the net thus making it difficult to deny, don’t you think that Israel may have denied it too?
I have already said that I condemn Hamas and all the atrocities that the Palestinians leadership are committing. They are despicable.
And to continue, do you think that the punishment Israel gives to it’s soldiers that committed war crimes or erred are enough? They sound like a pat on the hand to me compared to what they do to the Palestinians who err.
And as for links to Israel encouraging war crimes, didn’t you hear of Israel leaders talking of nuking Gaza and calling it Amalek which is a euphemism for killing everybody?
Pro Israel advocate: Let’s take your comments bit by bit.
”It is true that UN and some organizations on many occasions made hasty conclusions which they walk back later. But don’t you think that it is not right to claim that they have been wrong all the time?”
The UN has had to do more than walk their accusations back. Every single charge they made against Israel has had to be withdrawn after being investigated. For example, the
”Jenin massacre” and the investigations into war crimes supposedly committed by Israel
during Operation Cast Lead to name just two. Other accusations remain uninvestigated
and are left to hang in the air over Israel like a putrid smell. If the UN could prove
them, they would but as the allegations remain hanging and unretracted, they are used
to taint Israel and leave an impression in the minds of those who do not do the
homework to find out that they are unsubstantiated. If the UN’s allegations had been
justified some of the time, don’t you think they would have proved them, given their
decades long program of demonizing Israel? But no. When those allegations that are
investigated prove to be false, the UN never apologies or make widespread public
announcements that they were wrong. They move on to the next allegation and if they
don’t think they have some prospect of incriminating Israel, they simply leave the
accusations uninvestigated and hanging in the air.
“Let’s say that Haaretz and some other organizations also like the UN may have
ulterior agenda but it won’t be right to say that all of them and all that they ever
report against Israel are lies.”
Sure. Some things they say have a little truth woven in. Just enough to muddy the
waters. Israel is not above criticism and individual Israelis may commit crimes because
humans are humans and shit happens but in my observation, there is an entire industry
of blowing Israel’s mistakes out of proportion, or representing the actions of criminal
Israelis as representative of the entire society while dismissing and minimising the
behavior of its enemies. There is such a concerted campaign in this direction and it is so
unrelenting that any reasonable observer would have to question the motives behind
that level of imbalance.
“You used a typically examples of Elor Azaria case. Do you have any idea that the
person who shot that Azaria video was a Btselem or one of those other organizations
that report against Israel?”
I do not know who shot the film in the Elor Azaria case. Nor do I think that’s relevant.
I cited the case as an example that Israel will prosecute its own when its own have
broken law even against its enemies.
“If that video was not shot openly when it was happening clearly and posted on the
net thus making it difficult to deny, don’t you think that Israel may have denied it
too?”
No. There were a number of witnesses who gave evidence against him aside from the
video evidence and this suggests that there were a number of witnesses who were
prepared to bring attention to the incident. Israeli society in general demonstrates a
tendency to be more than fair to their enemies in my opinion. I’m not sure that they
need organizations like B’Tselem, funded and used as proxies for the purpose of
delegitimizing it to do that job.
”I have already said that I condemn Hamas and all the atrocities that the Palestinians
leadership’s are committing. They are despicable.”
I know your work, Paul. I have no problem with you questioning Israel’s actions. I’m
quite certain this conversation comes from a genuine place of legitimate enquiry without
an underlying agenda to damage Israel’s chances of survival. Legitimate conversation in
order to weigh the pros and cons of a situation is always to be commended.
“And to continue, do you think that the punishment Israel gives to its soldiers that
committed war crimes or erred is enough? They sound like a pat on the hand to me
compared to what they do to the Palestinians who err.”
I do not always agree with the sentences handed down by many courts in the world
and that includes Israel. Sometimes I think the sentences are too light and at other
times, too severe.
Using the Azaria case as an example, I do not think the evidence was clear cut at all.
The video itself was not proof that he shot the terrorist illegally. In fact, there was
some evidence in the video that bolstered his defense (that the terrorist continued to
move after being told to stay still and that there was reason to suspect the terrorist
may have been wearing a bomb belt that he was trying to set off). In the end, the film
was evidence of a crime but not proof of a crime.
Given that there are a number of cases where soldiers have been blown up by suicide
bombers in exactly the same situation, I feel there was a plausible case to be made in
his defense. Obviously, the court felt that he was somewhat trigger happy in his
response and accordingly found a conviction against him.
I note also that the the court found him guilty in the face of the legitimate criticism
that such a finding placed Israeli soldiers and police at life threatening disadvantage
due to having to weigh their legal position against the possibility of losing their own
lives through an abundance of over-caution and hesitation while in a situation in the
heat of the moment. I think it was quite controversial for the Israeli court to come to
such a decision in the light of such far reaching implications.
In terms of the sentence, I think that Azaria’s defence did have genuine merit in
mitigating his sentence (as outlined above) and I also think that without being present
and hearing the evidence in full, I’m not truly in a position to judge. However, as the
finding of guilt was, of itself quite controversial under the circumstances, I do believe
that this was an example of the Israeli courts showing their capacity to make findings
that are, in some respects, quite adverse to the interests and wishes of Israeli society.
I’ve no doubt there are other legal cases in Israeli jurisprudence we could go into one
by one. Some I would agree with. Some I would not. This is the same as I would feel
about any robust western legal system and simply demonstrates that the Israeli legal
system is no worse and may be better than many others from similar western
democracies. Again, I would argue that Israel has a demonstrable track record of
holding its own citizens to account for crimes against its enemies while its enemies have
no demonstrable track record of doing the same with its own citizens. None. None at
all.
“And as for Israeli leaders encouraging war crimes, didn’t you hear of them talking of
nuking Gaza and calling it Amalek which is a euphemism for killing everybody?”
Yes. I did hear of some of them… and they were very heavily criticized from both
within the parliament and by Israeli society. I believe the Amalek reference by
Netanyahu was taken out of context. I also believe it was said in the heat of the
moment while Israel was reeling from the shock of the horrific attacks of Oct 7. I don’t
excuse those comments, though. They should not have been made.
However, Israel’s actions have never reflected a desire to “Nuke Gaza”. Indeed, Israel
has always shown remarkable restraint and gone to extraordinary lengths to protect
Gazan civilians and this is demonstrable. On the other hand, while the imprudent
comments by some Israeli politicians have received much attention in the international
press, again, the attention is disproportionate to the attention and publicity not given to
the remarks of Gazan politicians who stated that they will continue to do Oct 7 “again
and again” if given the opportunity. While the comments of the Israeli politicians are
not the official position of the Israeli government nor of the society in general, the
comments of the Hamas leaders are reflective of their official policy and charters.
(And this is where the anti Israel guy shows the essence of the debate)
Paul: thank you so much for this debate.
Actually, I did not initiate this to question Israel’s actions. None at all. I initiated this
discussion to show the mistakes made many times in hasbara.
You gave wonderful answers but after everything, you arrived at still one of the
problems of hasbara.
There are two main points you made which are wonderful. One is in the right context
but the other is not.
I talked about the problem of hasbara in your other comment.
In this one, I will also add the consequences of what you just did.
You allowed yourself to be pressured.
You made it such that tomorrow, I can come again to accuse Israel of one thing or the
other that happened in Gaza hoping that if I see one, it’s a win and thus keep piling
them up.
(for example, the point about the Pro Israel advocate not supporting every decision by the courts in punishment of soldiers can be exploited to show that since Israel and the Palestinians are enemies and at conflict, does it not show that the Israeli courts can be biased against the Palestinians? How just does it sound that an entity you felt to be wrong and your enemy should sit in judgment over your issue? Does it not follow that since you have no trust in that your enemy’s courts, you can opt for outside neutral international courts like ICJ, ICC, and other nations?
The second point that could be exploited here and lead to the anti Israel coming back is the statement about not liking some statements from some Israel’s rightist leaders. This is an opening where the anti Israel can come and start harping on how ItamarBen Gvir, Bezalel Smotrich and other rightist leaders are in the government and not sacked. It will now be followed with the fact that since those “fascist” leaders who make such statements are still in government, does it not mean that the government is led by fascists who are out to commit genocide in Gaza and keep killing kids? The pressure will now be put on Israel sacking those leaders to actually show that it is not supporting their utterances and plans.)
You made it such that Israel will always be walking on egg shells so as not to be
accused.
There is a statement that the flow of water goes through the path of least resistance.
That’s also how the flow of blame goes.
The entity that allows itself to be pressured and always defend will be picked on all
the time and blamed.
You never attacked. You kept defending so you will keep getting pressured.
People don’t blame Hamas and the Palestinians cos you know why?
They are always attacking and never allowed themselves to be pressured.
There is a way this whole thing would have been turned around so you won’t be
pressured again.
That’s actually what I was looking for from you.
I think I made a mistake as we were discussing and naturally
started acting out the anti Israel guy and you act the pro israelguy without explicitly
stating that out. Maybe that’s why you thought the points I am making are coming from
my own personal questions. They are not. I am just acting out the part or questions a
subtle anti Israel guy can present to trap Israel supporters..
Paul: actually, let me show you how I think that anti Israel guy
should have been stopped. This will make sure that he won’t be coming again.
A Jewish friend told me that it is not Hasbara הסברה . She described it as ha’ara. הארה and hatkafa .התקפה
Anti Israel: do you condemn Israel war crimes?
My response: “I don’t condemn Israel. I support Israel for there is no Israel war crime in Gaza.
You have shown me videos of a woman shot to death by an Israeli sniper and you say
you have more videos, right?
Firstly, that video is crap. The Palestinians are known to create Pallywood all the time
to demonize Israel. Examples include the one they did that sparked the second intifada
amongst numerous other ones. I don’t trust that video and don’t know where it came
from and it’s legitimacy.
So till we are able to get correct assessment that those your videos are actual proofs,
they mean nothing”.
(You did wonderfully well with the above point by showing how the UN had been
wrong, Haaretz and Btselem and others of those anti Israel rags had been wrong too)
(In this below point, I will be making sure that he won’t start looking for individual
cases later to show me how they are war crimes and that I should condemn them or
Israel leaders who were said to call for such. I am trying to break his wing there. You
tried to go this path but did not exploit it well and put it in the right context)
“Secondly, let’s say for sake of argument that the videos are real proof and that an
Israeli sniper did shoot the woman.
Let me ask you, have you heard of Stalingrad during WW2? In there, the Germans set
up a different code of conduct in wars as they fought the Russians. The Russians then
answered in like manner to defeat them. Numerous civilians were killed there. Even in
many other wars in present times where the codes of war are respected by the
parties, numerous civilians died too. How many of them have you called out to be tried
or condemned and how many Russians went to the likes of ICC or whatever else for
Stalingrad?
Have you heard of Wafa Idris, Alam Tamimi, Ayat Al Akhras, and Umm Nidal? They were
Palestinian women and kids used by the Palestinians to suicide bomb and attack Israel.
Israel is at war with an entity that employs such tactics to destroy it. So I think I
might understand the sniper if he feels threatened that the woman coming might be
another Wafa Idris. But like I said, I will reserve my judgementof the video till the
truth is out (here I am making sure that I am not trapped into condemning Israel in
any way)
(In this third point is hatkafa where you attack and make sure that he won’t come
again)
Thirdly, you have claimed to oppose and condemn Hamas and I believe, despise the
deaths of the innocents.
Let me ask you, since in war situations all over the world, civilians are taken out or moved away from the conflict zone so as not to get hurt, what have you done to ensure that the woman you showed me and people like her are taken out of that area so that
Israel can stop that Hamas you do not like?
Or are you just sitting pretty here and judging Israel but refused to do anything to help stop that Hamas and protect those civilians you obviously are so concerned about?
Are you sure that you oppose Hamas or are you using the civilians to ensure that Hamas survived by protecting them through tying Israel’s hands with this your accusations?